Hashgraph Enthusiasts News & Rumours 62: Ledger Staking is Coming

Ledger staking for HBAR is coming and I talk with Tyler from HashPack about it. Also ISO20022, mutable NFTs, CBDCs, Liithos gaming, the gossip protocol update and Pangolin DEX.

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Transcription

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍When I look at this, I often see the same thing when it came to Coinbase happening with this now. Where we see people tweeting every single day asking for Ledger to support, hbar staking. It's a big thing, you know. I know a lot of people with Hardware wallets, and specifically Ledger, and the 6.5% whatever it is APY on Native staking on Hedera is really, really appealing for a lot of people. I'm gonna have the CTO of HashPack Tyler, pop up here, but it's really a top of mind for the whole community because it really hits at the core. We'll talk a little bit about how staking on Hedera is really different from other networks. We'll talk a little bit about what HashPack is working on in some other areas, but we'll focus on where we've been with staking via Ledger devices on Hedera, why it's important, and what could be happening over the next two months. And I mean, most folks are familiar with HashPack, but if you're new to the space, I'm going to introduce you to Tyler. So, a well-known hbar community member, Tyler is the CTO of HashPack and is responsible for quite a few user experience innovations in the Hedera ecosystem and the broader web3 industry. He, along with May and the rest of the HashPack team, have been busy since their launch over a year ago. Here's a quick recap: since going live, they've empowered the NFT ecosystem with secure trade, supercharged ecosystem development with HashConnect, helped spearhead efforts for HIP 412 NFT metadata standards, worked with LG, received a grant from the hbar foundation, collaborated with SaucerSwap, Hashport, and Stader Labs on DeFi, added support for Native staking, launched their Android app, added in-wallet token swaps, launched a new DAP browser, finally announced the new iPhone app, and most recently supported email logons, which we'll talk a little bit about. And then heading into 2023, obviously, a major focus for them is this Ledger staking stuff, and it's really the most requested feature in the Hedera community. It's been a long road, but with recent news, there is light at the end of the tunnel, and today we're going to unpack a little bit about this. So, Tyler, I'm really, you know, I haven't, it's been 62 episodes, I don't think I've had HashPack on the show yet as a guest, which is kind of surprising, but it's so awesome to have you here. We've spoken in the past, but we haven't really had a chance to kind of unpack some of this awesome stuff you guys are working on. How are you doing? It's Sunday, we're getting ready for another week, what's new?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Hey man, nice to be here, big fan of the show, so it's exciting to actually get to be on here. Yeah, I'm looking forward to kind of unpacking all this this staking stuff. And, yeah.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍It's a long time listener, first-time caller, I dig it. So obviously at the top of the show, I was talking about TPS and all these different things going on with the network. I'm, as the CTO at HashPack, you're definitely in the eye of the storm. I'm really interested to know what are your thoughts on the massive shift in TPS and the response from the folks outside the Hedera community, because I know that and this was something that I was going to talk about later, but maybe we can unpack it a little bit. You know, we've seen people from Reddit to GitHub to all sorts of different areas, Twitter, talking about how some of these transactions or over 90% of these transactions on the network are the Hedera Consensus Service. They maybe don't understand that they're actual crypto transactions and not just something that you could compare to Solana, and we've seen these discussions of, in, you know, evolve. So it's kind of curious of like, what, you know, what's your thoughts and excitement around these fundamental changes of the network? And maybe do you have any takes on these conversations happening outside the community, kind of looking at the network from the outside in?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, I mean, it's pretty obvious that it, it's kind of just a misunderstanding for the most part on kind of the people criticizing the TPS being mostly consensus messages. Like, if you do just a little bit of reading, it becomes pretty obvious that it's not consensus in the same way that other kind of contexts like that were mean stuff. And yeah, I mean, I think it's great that the kind of mythical step function is starting to materialize here and, yeah, I think it's long overdue, and the people seem to be either extremely excited about it or extremely critical of it. So, yeah, it's interesting times, but it's only going to get better.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I think we're realizing more and more as a community that Hashgraph as a technology really is a pretty disruptive technology. So, you know, with disruptive technologies, it's like you can love it or hate it, but you can't really ignore it. So we've got people's attention, for better or for worse. So we're entering kind of into a new phase, and like you said, I mean, hopefully people kind of load up YouTube, crack a book, learn a little bit about what's going on, and maybe kind of go, "Oh, this is interesting." And I think we're starting to see a little bit about that, but, I want to kind of really dive into what we're here to talk about, which is staking. You know, Ledger, all these different types of things people are talking about, but maybe, just to kind of kick things off with this discussion, like, you know, staking on the Hedera network is very different from other networks and what people are used to. I was, I was curious to know, like, maybe you could explain to people maybe listening that are new to Hedera their network, you know, how staking is different on this network in comparison to, you know, other L1s.

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yes, sure. I'm not a hundred percent familiar with staking on a whole lot of other kind of chains. I'm pretty like Hedera first, but in, in general, so staking is like, it's an account level setting. Like, it's a network level feature, and so what that means is that you choose the node that you want to stake your account to and then every 24 hours, you get rewards, and that's basically it. You just click it and it's done. Um, the your Hbars are not locked up, they're not, you know, like you're, they're fully available at all times, and anytime you send, or send HBAR to or from your account, it updates that staking balance automatically. So that's a pretty big question I get a lot, is like, 'I sent some, how do I stake it?' And the answer is, it's just automatically done. You get, at the moment, it's about six, six and a half percent a year. I believe that eventually that will change depending on, like, the node that you stake to. It's like up time and stuff, so it kind of incentivizes, nodes to be, like, healthy as much as possible. And yeah, I mean, it's a pretty straightforward system once you kind of wrap your head around it, but, yeah.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Yeah, that's a great, that's a great explanation. It's not really staking your HBAR, it's just staking your account. Also too, John, I see it down there, I'll bring you up shortly to talk about, some ISO 20022 stuff, but here's where we get into Ledger stuff. So, you know, as Tyler was talking about, you stake your Hedera account, kind of set it and forget it, and you have to do this with a hot wallet, right, which is the Chrome extension, the web app, the IOS app, the Android app. And for many folks in the crypto space that need that higher level of security, the first step is obviously you get a cold wallet or a hardware wallet like, you know, a Ledger. And that's probably where most people would store their biggest, you know, stack their biggest bag of HBAR. And unfortunately, people can't stake the HBAR in a HashPack that's using Ledger currently, and a lot of people have been tweeting about this and all these different types of things. And I think that there is some confusion about how it's implemented. I know that you can do it via Ledger on other networks and those different types of things, so maybe Tyler, you know, when Hedera launched staking, obviously you guys had it supported in your wallet, but obviously it takes companies, you know, third-party companies time to integrate these types of things. But we've also seen a delay in Hedera getting listed on Coinbase or all these different types of things, so I think my question is, is it a situation where a Hashgraph is so different from a blockchain that implementing this network's features into applications and hardware that traditionally would use blockchain networks or stuff like that, like, is that an element to this, or is it just a case of, you know, Hedera is not an incredibly popular network yet, and it's not a massive priority, so things just kind of take time? I'm curious of like, how much of it is kind of a technical learning curve versus just you know what's the most popular one that we're going to build in?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, so it's kind of an interesting question. It's sort of all of the above. So let me kind of set the stage for what the exact situation is. So, the Ledger device is, it's like a USB stick, right? It has software running on it that Ledger made. But, the applications that run on top of Ledger for these specific blockchains are not necessarily themselves made by Ledger. So, like the Hedera app on Ledger, for example, is not made by Ledger, it's made by Launch Badge, which is a contracting company that Hedera has hired to make this Hedera application on the Ledger device. They're also responsible for the JavaScript SDK. And so, it's not necessarily even Ledger that's dragging the ball on this. It just took a while to kind of get the work done in the Hedera application on Ledger to enable this stuff. And the reason for that is, kind of like you said, it's not a typical kind of blockchain. Like it's not just a smart contract, like not everything is a smart contract, right? So, it's kind of, again, I'm not the one kind of working on this, so if my details are a bit fuzzy, but yeah, I think it just takes more work to implement these things. And they've been working on this since kind of before staking was public. So, like, it's been in progress for a while. It just moves slow, essentially, yeah, right?

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍So, that makes more sense. And maybe I and some other people have kind of oversimplified the situation, where how I've been viewing it is, okay, we've got Hedera, we've got Ledger, and there's apps on our network like HashPack that want to use the hardware more extensively, and Ledger and Hedera have to kind of get things worked out and all these different types of things. But really, what it's about is there's, you know, there's third-party contractors, there's all these other folks involved where they kind of all have to work together, they have their own timelines, and things just kind of have to sync up, and they kind of take time. And that's really interesting. What you said about this being, you know, they've started working on this before staking went live. So, and also too, I have to say that Ledger has been very, you know, as vocal as they can be about this, responding to people's inquiries on Twitter and all these different types of things, letting people know what's going on. And so, with your most recent update through HashPack, well, I don't mean like updates the app, but just update on Twitter, you've mentioned that this functionality should be coming in about two months. You guys have completed the work that you need, and not only are people going to be able to stake their HBAR in the way that they're used to, like you said, but also it's going to add support for HTS tokens, like the ones that we talked about that I was talking about earlier, and also NFTs. So, maybe you can tell us a little bit about what kind of other functionality you guys are going to bring to Ledger devices once things kind of get underway?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, yeah, sure. So, basically, there's about three types of transactions that are going to be, supported with the next update, so it'll be token associate, token disassociate, and account update, and the account update one is what is required for staking, since you're staking your account to a node. And so with that, like NFTs are our tokens, so you'll be able to associate NFT tokens and send and receive them from your Ledger. Just as a kind of caveat to this, so you won't be able to assign smart contracts or so, like you won't be able to like swap stuff directly from your Ledger. You won't be able to list stuff on Zuse, for example, since that requires a token allowance transaction, which I don't think is being included in this, but yeah, that's kind of a high level.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Okay, so that makes sense. So really, this is just like, we took a baby step with, you know, getting support for Hbar and Ledger. Now we're taking another step, but there's still a way to go, but what we've asked for is staking, and we're going to get a couple little extra goodies, which is cool. And this brings me to my next question. I don't know what exact transactions secure trade uses, but would Secure Trade be something that would be supported on a Ledger device using HashPack?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍That's a great question. I don't think so. I'd have to test it. I don't think so, but maybe like a 10% chance.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍I mean, you heard it here first, folks. We got a 10% chance we're gonna have Ledger Secure Trades. It was just something I thought of. I was like, I wonder what kind of transactions Secure Trading uses. Maybe it'll be possible. So that'll be really interesting to see, but, definitely not something promised from you guys. I just pulled it out of my ass. So, it was kind of interesting, but here's another question on this because now, like, when we get past these two months, it goes live, everyone's happy, hip hip hooray. What do I do as a user? Is it a situation where I log into my HashPack that's using my Ledger, and it just looks different, right? I no longer have the red text that says NFTs aren't supported, and I just kind of continue using it as usual, and things just work, and I can stake, and everything's fine? Is there any action that's going to be needed on the user's part? Any kind of updates to their account that they're going to have to make, or will it just, or will they have to update their Ledger device, the Hedera app on the Ledger device? I'm curious to see if you guys have any clarity on what steps, if any, users are going to have to take when this comes into effect.

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, you'll likely have to update the firmware on your Ledger device. Um, yeah, you'll have to do that, or possibly just the Hedera app on that, and then once you do that, everything should just work once you log into HashPack with your Ledger. There may be a couple other things that need to be disabled, like, like Secure Trade or you know, whatever else we kind of find when we're testing and unblock these UIs, but it should be pretty seamless.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Yeah, okay. So that's what you're saying, if there's anything required to be updating the Hedera app on the Ledger, maybe, maybe updating the firmware, and but on HashPack's side, it's really just essentially front-end updates for you guys. There's nothing really that anyone's gonna have to do in their HashPack wallet.

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Correct. Yeah, you'll just have to get the latest update from HashPack, too.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Yeah, okay, cool. That's awesome. Okay, so I get, like, that's kind of, you know, that's staking. I mean, it sounds like we're gonna, we're gonna need those two months for you guys to figure out actually what's possible with this update from Ledger and what you can do with these with these three transaction types and understand what some, you know, future roadmap items could be, but it seems pretty straightforward. It seems like unpacking this is just kind of, we're getting staking, we're getting a couple little extra goodies. You're not gonna have to do a whole lot to make it work, and that's really cool. So I'm excited about that. Now I want to move on to something else because this is a big thing that I don't think can be overshadowed. Is something I brought up when I was intro you was Secure Trade. I think Secure Trade is like a really integral part of, you know, the NFT space, and I know that you guys are going to be coming out with Secure Trade 2.0, and I know that currently Secure Trade is great because you can transfer NFTs for HBAR, which is great. Obviously, we have room to grow, so I'm curious with the new version of Secure Trade. I've seen some updates about it, but I want to maybe give you a chance to maybe intro Secure Trade 2.0 and what people might be able, to do with it.

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, yeah. So, for those unaware, Secure Trade is a, it's essentially a multi-sig, asset transfer. So, you say, "I want to trade this NFT for X amount of HBAR," it gives you a code. You give that code to somebody else, they input it, and they say, "Yep, I agree to this," and then it does the trade. It's called an atomic swap, which means, multi-assets being swapped in a single transaction. So this kind of came about from just seeing people getting ripped off by people for they were like, "Send me this NFT, I'll send you this much HBAR," and then they just never sent the HBAR, which is not really in the spirit of trustlessness. So right now, Secure Trades is just NFT for HBAR. We're working on kind of expanding that to just be like a free-for-all of asset types. So, you know, tokens, NFTs, HBARs, any combination to from, it doesn't matter and yeah, that's where we're going. It's mostly done. Like I'd say like 90% done just have to, the thing with with Hedera is all these royalties that are built into the chain, and just parsing them is a real pain. So, we're just making sure we get that all right so that users don't get surprised by a 10% royalty on this trade. Like, we want to display every single fee involved in the process so people know what they're agreeing to.

‍Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍That makes sense. Now, let me, because again, secure trade is so important to our ecosystem and community, and I think that expanding it in this way is going to be huge, and I want to run maybe a few examples by you of what a new secure trade could look like. So, for example, if I have an NFT now, I can only kind of ask for HBAR. But what if, with the new version of secure trade, would I be able to do something like offer an NFT and ask for some SAUCE Token, some DOVU Token, and some USDC?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yes.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Okay, really cool. Now, here's another question: would I be able to do a secure trade and not have any NFTs involved? So, for example, if I wanted to say to somebody, 'Hey, let's do some, I'll give you some SAUCE and HBAR for USDC and JAM or something.' Could you maybe do something like that?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍You sure can.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍That's really, really cool. And the final thing would be, I've got a couple cool NFTs, you've got a couple cool NFTs, let's keep the money out of it, let's just swap some NFTs and call it a wash. Would I be able to do that? Okay, that's really interesting, so it opens up this whole dynamic of off-market activity for really any asset on Hedera, which is really interesting. And I think that I really want people to start thinking about it because I think just as the original version of secure trade had a huge effect on the dynamic of this community, I think that this new version of secure trade is the same kind of thing. People are going to kind of go, 'Oh, okay, I can do I can move all these things without having to trust the other party,' and that's really going to be interesting. So, here's another cool update that you did. That again, I think is really important when it comes to growing the ecosystem: the ability to create a HashPack wallet with an email address, right? And this is using a piece of infrastructure called Magic link that's used by a lot of different web3 companies. I think Tournament was using it at one time, and I know that they, you know, so many different people use them. Basically, what you've done is you've integrated this in with HashPack. You can go to HashPack, create a new wallet with an email, log in with your email. You know, I'm guessing the point of authentication and security would be your email address, so you'd obviously want to have a strong password and two-factor authentication set up on your email. But it makes it so you don't have to manage your own private keys and stuff to access your wallet. So, I'm curious, and I think you know, maybe we'll take an opportunity just really quick here to touch on the email login stuff. How does that actually work? You're not using your private key or login, you're using your email. I'm curious, you know, with you building this feature, how does it kind of work on the back end? Like, what actually happens when you create the wallet and log in? I'm curious.

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, yeah, great question. So magic link stores your private keys on the Amazon secure key management system. There are a lot of technical reasons, like how this works, but essentially it's encrypted on these security modules in Amazon's cloud, and only you have the credentials to decrypt it. So, the keys are actually never in HashPack. The way signing works is it gets sent to your transaction gets sent to the cloud to be signed, and then the signed transaction is then returned and executed by us. HashPack never even sees your keys. And yeah, it's been audited and everything. There's a great write-up on the Magic Link site about the security that explains it in a much better way than I can on this space, but it's really legit, and we've seen a lot of success from this feature. People seem to really like it.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Okay, that's awesome. So, it's something that's audited. It's something that's used very widely. Is this kind of feature used on other networks where you type in your email address and have your private keys handled in the same way?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, yeah, they recently added it for them. I believe the Hbar Foundation was talking to them about it, massaged a deal out there to get them at it. But yeah, they support a bunch of networks. It's super easy to implement, and I actually suggest if anyone's looking to build something and they don't want to implement a wallet, look into Magic Link. It's the perfect kind of solution for more invisible crypto use cases where the user doesn't even need to know they're using crypto. Like it, they actually like Magic Link. I think it started not with not using crypto at all, it was just a login solution. And then I guess they kind of pivoted away to crypto, and yeah, it's a great system.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍That's awesome. I love that. So, I have two more questions for you. So, kind of again changing gears, you recently launched the HashPack iOS app. We all know the struggles when it comes to web 3 entering stores, especially Apple's App Store, because you have Apple that kind of wants to take their cut on transactions, but they don't necessarily have the Ethereum address or an Hbar account. So, they can't really do some of these transactions. So, there isn't a lot of web 3, and Apple kind of don't mesh currently, and it's pretty evident seeing you know, it's unfortunate that you guys have to kind of eliminate certain features of your wallet to function in the App Store. And I'm kind of curious, like you don't have to go too deep into it, but what's that experience like navigating that as a web 3 company? What are your thoughts on Apple's stance on these types of things? Is there any sense that you get of them maybe adapting a little more to web 3? I'm really curious to kind of look is getting a taste of what that situation looks like from your end as a developer.

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, yeah, so my stance on this Apple stuff is it's just incredibly stupid and It just makes no sense, and I think that's, I don't know, if they don't understand kind of the burden that they're putting on these apps, or I just don't really get the motivation here, but so a bit of kind of background on what this situation is: back in, I guess, end of October, I think, they decided that they wanted a 30% cut of anything involving NFTs, and that you had to use their in-app payment system for the fees, and if you're buying anything, you have to use the internet purchase thing if it's using NFTs. And so, like, I've had a lot of back and forth with our hacker viewers when we were kind of going through the approval process for our app, and it got to the point where, like, if I was sending an NFT to you, right, like, it's a fraction of a penny, and they essentially just want a cut of that.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Like, you're telling me Apple wants their 30% cut of a fraction of the penny, basically?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, yeah, I think it's more the principle, right, versus the amount, you know, but it just made no sense to me like how I could pay the Hedera network fee using the in-app purchase system like it just I didn't see an actual way that's possible. And so they basically just told me then disable it. And I guess for the, there's another feature that the in-wallet swaps, you have to submit like a bunch of legal documentation saying we're allowed to do swaps and stuff like exchanges, but, you know, that's a bit out of our reach at the moment, but yeah. So it's mostly NFT stuff that is not allowed on iOS for us.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍So yeah, right. So again, there's a few ways we can chalk this up: Hashgraph’s of Disruptive technology and you can look at it from the perspective of, for example, you buy a product for a dollar, Visa gets 50 cents. Everybody wants a cut at some point, and to a big extent, the technology space and web3 included, like most industries, you know, inefficiencies do drive a lot of revenue, and when you take that away and things get really good, almost too good. There definitely is resistance. Maybe they just don't understand this stuff, they probably do, but yeah, it's frustrating, and I think that for myself, it's like, it's so nice to have an iOS wallet because you have that on device security, you've got, you know, Face ID and all those different types of things, it's great hardware, it's a fantastic way to secure your stuff, but also, it's like you do want to use the browser extension or the web version just because you can do more stuff with it, so it's tough for you guys to promote that additional security when it comes at such a trade-off. It definitely is tough for you guys, but I really, you know, one thing that I do commend is like just moving forward with it. I think the only way this stuff is going to change is if users can experience that and see that contrast. And maybe provide a bit of, you know, give a bit of pressure to these companies, as we see the adoption of crypto growing, because it's all digital wallets. Apple has their own digital wallet, Apple Pay. HashPack is just another digital wallet. So, I think the space will change. It's going to take time, it's going too slow. But I want to move on to the rest of the news. But I have one more question. Before you go, um, I was interested, kind of, you know, we've seen a lot of new people hop into the Hedera space, the H-bar community, a lot of new H-barians, Hedarians, and a lot of those folks are building things on the network and maybe they don't know where to start or understand, you know, certain things to do or any pitfalls or stuff like that. So, as somebody such as yourself, it's, as you said, been developing specifically for the Hashgraph for, you know, quite a while, is there, like, what's, like, your best piece of advice or some good advice you would give to someone planning to build on Hedera that's just kind of starting out, an individual developer, maybe something you wish someone said to you when you set out to build Hash Pack? I'm curious if there's any kind of tidbits of wisdom you could pass on to some of these new folks in the community.

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍Yeah, I would start kind of by reading the Hedera documentation, just tip to tail, like the whole thing, read every single thing in that Hedera documentation, understands what you can do with the network jump into the Hedera Discord and maybe ask questions if you have them. A big one is don't, don't store your private keys on the front end. There's been a number of projects that have had their stuff stolen by by storing the treasury keys in the front end. Do not do that people will find them and steal all your stuff. And yeah, I mean we're super open at HashPack. Like, if you're building something, come ask questions. We got a developer channel that people ask questions all the time, like how do I do this? And yeah, it's pretty easy if you're kind of a semi-experienced developer, it's pretty easy to pick up. I would maybe put some warning to Junior devs to maybe get a little experience under your belt before jumping into crypto stuff, just because there's kind of like a layer on top of kind of normal development. But yeah, I mean it's pretty easy to approach compared to other chains.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Yeah, that's great. I think the takeaway from that is just, you know, if you're starting out, be patient with yourself. This is a new technology and web3 is also new. So you know, be patient with yourself when you're developing. There are mistakes that you can make. Now before I let you go, was there, you know, was there anything you wanted to plug or anything cool from HashPack do you want to mention or any shoutouts you wanted to give?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍I try not to hype stuff up too far before it's ready to go, but we have a lot of exciting stuff in the hopper at the moment, so keep your eyes out for that. I mean, shout out to everybody who's kind of used HashPack and all the builders who have helped us build this kind of vibrant ecosystem of dapps and nfts and all this stuff going on. It's really something to be a part of, so thanks everybody.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Real quick before you go, I had someone leave a question in the spaces here. I think maybe it would be good for you as it was from Orbis 86, and they ask, 'Are we going to introduce any compatibility with EVM chains, especially within wallet swaps?' I know that there's some dexes like Pangolin and also like we got Hashport and stuff, but I think they're asking kind of specifically in-wallet stuff. Are you guys going to be offering those kinds of in-wallet swaps that are kind of EVM compatible? I imagine so at some point down the road.

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍So, we've been kind of exploring the Hashport stuff that they've been putting out lately, so like porting stuff over could be a thing soon, not on our immediate roadmap. But swap-wise, I guess we kind of have to see how it goes. We would definitely like to expand our in-wallet swap capabilities to handle more exchanges and more price feeds and all that stuff. There's a lot going on in the DeFi space. In terms of other chains in HashPack, we don't really have anything to talk about on this subject at the time, but it's not out of the question. Who knows.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Okay, one more question. Same person listening, will bulk sender feature be available to send multiple NFTs to multiple wallets? Secure trade is limited to eight or ten at the moment, I believe. I guess what they're asking is, would you be able to do secure trade with more than two parties involved?

HashPack Wallet – Tyler Coté – Founder & CTO
‍The secure trade limit is kind of a technical limitation of the Hedera network. You can really only have like nine or ten asset transfers in a single transaction. Bulk sending, I don't want to give anything away yet, but we got some cool stuff coming up, so keep an eye out.

Pixel Rug – Brandon Davenport - Founder
‍Okay, awesome. Well, thanks, Tyler. I really appreciate it. I'm going to send you back down to the listeners.