Earthlings Twin Talk Twitter Spaces - Crypto Scam Stories, what can we learn from them? (Part 2)
In this Twitter Spaces hosted by Earthlings and HashPack, we dive deep into some of the crypto scams the panelists have been impacted by, what they have learned from it, and what can be done to avoid them in the future.
Knows about, in case something happens to me, it's not all lost. And it's a family member who I can trust with money. And in case something happens to me and they can't operate a computer, so they don't really know what to do with it, but I told them who to go look to, to go see to figure it out. A family member that's like an engineer. And then also, a digital backup with a camera that's air gapped from the Wi-Fi or Internet that never gets plugged into a computer. And that's kind of another backup for me. And I like to use multiple wallets. So like, I think I have up to right now about 54 wallets, and I'll rotate through and spread out the risk, so that if anyone were to get compromised or, you know, something more to happen, I can give away one piece of the treasure but not the whole bag. Same reason why I prefer an economic distribution of different exchanges. So like, for example, right now Binance is kind of waning in support from the regulators, but Coinbase seems to be kind of winning the support from regulators right now. So, I open up accounts of both, and I also have one on KuCoin, which is better for non-KYC converting to stable coins. Like that, spread out your risk so it's not all concentrated in one spot. Um, and then I would say the most important part about not getting yourself scammed is being able to trust developers. So, for example, HashPack. So like, when I got into the space, I found about Club H bar. I looked into developers to see who was the smartest, who was the most honest. You know, come to find out, like, Pluto from H bar, I asked the other developers what their opinion of his Heaven is. They said he's a 10x Developer. Um, you know, everything in the code is correct. Um, and having trust, so those things, you know, so you can trust the code because I'm not a coder, I'm tech-savvy but I'm not a coder, and being able to trust developers. I know with Earthlings, uh, when you guys did the boss meant, I was in on the blockchain, like checking every transaction to make sure it wasn't you guys weren't taking any shortcuts and weren't, you know, pre-minting and then saying it was distribution but it was actually natural and real, and you guys knew how to code. And so those are kind of little tests that I would do before, you know, deploying, you know, five and six figures into a project, and it's very important to be able to trust developers. And then the last thing, I was second to last thing, I would like to say, Discord scammer. So I've had tons, I've had like three or four people add me to my Discord, and they'll add you first as a friend, and then they will talk to you and try to get you into, Telegram or they'll try to, you know, get you into WhatsApp and get off of Discord and off the major social media platforms because, so they can't get banned or their IPs can't get banned, and so I kind of played along just to see how it would go. And, you know, play Dom played hard to get, and they'll do everything. And they will send you dirty photos, they will, you know, work you up and down and crazy, call you on the phone. I even got one to tell me that they end up keeping 10% of the scam or whatever they keep. Uh, I think she was just bored. Um, and, you know, so that is real. So, understanding who is adding you as a friend, and basically automatically treat them as a scammer. Uh, you know, and never give out your personal information, and especially not doxing yourself so people don't know where to look you up in real life, so they don't know where to kind of attack you in that way. And then the last thing is VPN, so I'm a huge proponent for VPNs. They help protect privacy on the internet, not only in my own personal computer but also my router, so you have multiple layers of VPNs so people can't ping you. They can't know where you are and track who you are, things like that, and it's a very cheap and cost-effective way, you know, to stay protected. But the number one way that people do get scammed is phishing scams, and so those are links through emails. So you have to be, you can open up a scam email, and it's not really going to hurt you, but it's clicking the links is what hurts you because it will install malware on your computer, and then they can keylog you and do other things, to then get your passwords and etc, not just your crypto but also your personal financial stuff. I think the one scam for like six or seven hundred million dollars, they had emailed an offer talked to him about offering him double his salary one of the server developers, and then when he opened up the PDF that showed him the job offer that linked them to the server, and they were able to train I think six or seven hundred million dollars off that. So, fishing phishing scams are the number one thing that you need to worry about. So, that's sorry for being long-winded, but that's my experience for the last like seven or eight months.
Earthlings – Patrick De Grijs – Founder & CEO
Yeah, yeah, I think you, me, and two, they can fill a whole show, and if we have coffee as a guest, we can talk all night. I'm going to go, uh, I saw your, I saw your um, so that's what I like about these shows. You've got so many different, a few points on this whole, well, scamming Rockpool everything, and I think we could talk for another three hours. I do want to go before, so coffee, do you have time to go a bit over the hour that I first go to fast Society? Are you okay with that, uh, coffee and HashGuild? Okay, now I want to hear your stories because, for some reason, I think you have some cool ones. But so fast Society, because you raised your hands as well. Now I would really feel sorry if you didn't get a turn and you needed to go. So, far Society, introduce your project shortly and tell us your story and maybe some advice as well. And thank you, Apph, for all your experience because I loved that it was so different than the rest of the feedback we already got. So, thank you so much for being a speaker this evening. For Society is for you now.
Fast Society - Cardano
Okay, Patrick, hey everyone, it's only extremely nice to be here and talk with you all, guys. Um, you've got some really heavy stories behind you, so probably I will just quickly and just focus on our experience. And there are mostly, and we're not NFTs, as we are in Ft collection. We are making a game, mobile-first, for web 2 users. But we are racing through NFT collection. We are building the game for over 15 months right now, and we are quite long on the space, doing games also for their collections. But I think that's about us. And going back to scams and rock pools, actually, I was a part of quite, I think not well-known rock pool, but I was a joining kind of tea space, somewhere at the beginning of 2021, where basically there were a lot of NFT collections that were purely focused on this rock pulling, just. It still wasn't not so well-known strategy, and when I was joining, I was overwhelmed by a number of collections, and I won. And I was like, desperately wanted to be a part of something. We were already building again for one of our Cardano community, but I wanted to check out how it works on bigger chains. So, obviously, I tried either, and on if there was, I think I like it's a well-known rifle, not to you know, well-marketed, but it was about dragons, and they were making a game. And I was deeply going through their website. I was trying to figure it out how they are doing what they are doing, and it was well described. They got even a trailer of the game. It was like, let's say, first or third-person dragon-based game, so you could basically fly a dragon and do whatever you want to do with it. And it was looking, you know, I'm from the gaming market, so I know how to, you know, see through those trailers, and I actually know that there is a strategy on like big consoles, big platforms, that you can make a trailer, and then see if you have enough watch this on Steam. So then after that, you decide if you want to go further with the project or you just want to kill it. So, I knew it is doable to make a nice trailer. This trailer was actually sticky one, and that actually convinced me, okay, maybe because they are really doing that, and they are, you know, newbies In the space, they actually did this to the trailer, but this actually convinced me that, okay, maybe they are just, you know, some freaks that want to make a game. And I believe them. And they make this pretty nice website. Everything basically was okay. They were running a very active Discord, a lot happening there. And actually, I bought about, like, seven of those. It cost me quite a lot of money. And because there was a promise that whoever owns a number of dragons, they will get a female dragon. And you know, this bundle type of approach really convinced me. Okay, I could get the female dragon. Then with my female dragon, I can get baby dragon. And I will have a game where I can breed them and everything. You know, everything just felt okay. The team seemed to be doxed, but it was a fake Toxin. And they didn't do this, uh, southern rock pool. So it lasts for like maybe six months more after mint was fully, fully minted. It wasn't like this one hour mint, but it took them like two days. And they actually were, you know, showing all the drawings of the next dragons, female dragons. They updated roadmap and so on. But after six months, they suddenly just, you know they just said that okay, game is not doable within this budget and sorry our team has left. We have so many problems that they just being gone. And it was it came on me like suddenly because I was highly involved, like, you know, I was looking at them. I didn't turn off all the, all the prompts and everything that's going up on Discord. I was, they were quite active. And then after six months, they were just gone. So they were if this sophisticated enough not to do a sudden rifle, but they drag you over where people actually, you know, they just hold the tokens and they just don't look into projects so much. And then they reactable. So basically they made it in a smart way. And since then, I said to myself that never ever I will believe in people that don't have experience in what they are trying to achieve. So since then, I'm looking for projects that actually can show their experience that, hey, we did something before, and we, you know, we try to go through all the obstacles that appear when you try to make a project live and try to make this project for the people. And this is one of the things that I'm looking in docs projects. So from my opinion, is that you shouldn't look on the docs people only, but also you should look on people that are dogs and they can prove that they did something in their lives. It doesn't have to correspond with what they're doing right now, but they have to do have to have experience in doing some things from the scratch. So I can be sure that even if the big obstacle will come up, they will have enough energy and power and experience and mentally, you know, be strong enough to go over them. So that was first.
Earthlings – Patrick De Grijs – Founder & CEO
Thanks so much for experience for sharing that experience as well, and it's so good to see you here is as well, this evening we've got three chain and Cardano, uh, in this space as well, and this is great to see, of course. And I am with you 100% with that as well. With a lot of what you said there, because indeed, you see these sometimes these well young projects. Um, if you go to the Twitter space, they talk about, uh, well, having a beer and stuff like, shouldn't you talk about your project? So yeah, that's that for me was sometimes also a signal not to do anything with that project. Yeah, an experienced team can help out a lot. So, um, coffee, do you still have time? This, for me, to first, because we're going to go over the hour with the stuff. Yes, is everyone is so has great stories? Can I first have HashGuild because you're a legend already in the space? Hash Guild, tell us who you are. How are you going to take over the space? But what most importantly, tell us your scam or rockpool stories and how could you have offended them? And maybe, um, is there something from the project that you're doing that you're seeing, uh, go wrong in this space as well?
HashGuild – Ninja – Marketing Manager
Hi, everyone. Good day, good morning, good afternoon, and good evening from everywhere you are. So, this is Ninja from HashGuild. I'm the marketing and communication manager representing the team. So, our skill is a permissionless marketplace on Hedera for those that don't know yet, and we are trying to build infrastructures, and not just trying to, we are already doing that, and making it easy for creators within this space to be able to have a stable and inconvenient way of launching their ideas. So, I have my own experience. It isn't three parts, I will say, but I will make it so short, and the first part will be personal, the second part will also be personal, but the third part will be related to the experiences we have had concerning creators and like deceivers within the space and how we've been able to mitigate those issues. The number one part is actually personally. I joined crypto since 2015, and I had my first share of scamming, and that was in 2016 during the landing coil era for those that remember when DeFi just started, when we had landing coins. You can remember something like something connect and something one coin, so, uh, I know a lot of people can remember or can share the same feeling about that, and actually, I wasn't really affected by that because I am a kind of person that always try as much as possible to do my personal research. But notwithstanding, because you want to make or flip money from one side to the other, I got caught in the middle, and I lost some money to that to the lending coins. Yeah, I lost some money, but I think I really made more than what I lost, so I can literally say so much on that. The other part was how I got hacked, and everything I really literally owned in crypto was taken away from me. And if you were in the crypto space you remember back then, we had the Blockchain Wallet which was the number one wallet, and the other wallet was Coinomial Wallet. Before we really had Metamask coming up, and we already had MyEtherWallet that was the main wallet in the Ethereum Blockchain. It was so funny that normally we do researches, we go into new projects, try to know what they are trying to build, and all these projects always launch on the Bitcoin Talk org, like it was still ready for crypto back then. So I found this project, I read the white paper, I saw it as a very brilliant idea, and one thing led to the other. They were talking about introducing a new layer for Bitcoin, blah blah blah, and we had to import our wallet. Although I thought I imported a different wallet so that I could start taking back then, I think it was late 2016 going towards 2017. I thought I already created a new address from my Koinome wallet, and unfortunately, it was my main wallet that I imported. I thought I started staking already, and then I think I lost up to six thousand dollars to that because I just started. And back then, the six thousand dollars right now, I mean when crypto was at sixty-two thousand, should be worth more than let's say twenty thousand dollars. So, that was the biggest highlight of what I experienced when it comes to scam, and how I was unable to do due diligence when it comes to investing. So, these are two separate ways; is it really related to investment and is it related to direct Arc? I have had my own fair share also, so right now these days, I just do a lot of basic groundwork. I do a lot of groundwork before I decide to invest, and when I'm investing, I just throw in a few money that I know that if I lose it, I am comfortable with it. So, I just do my personal trading also, but I spread it across all exchanges. We have a lot of them, so I don't really have a favorite exchange, and I don't fall in love with any project. So, those have been my own key point when it comes to knowing what to do with what you want to invest in; don't fall in love, number one. With any project, because anything can go wrong, and you, the investor, will be the most likely person to get affected on the long run. So, when it comes to the third part on HashGuild, in the early days of HashGuild, we experienced some intruders that started building up a clone project and listing. Because we, from day one, started as a permission list, that you can list your NFTs, whatever it is. Are you a single creator or do you have a community behind you? We wanted to make it a very easy portal for people to launch into Hedera, and we had these related issues, but we have been able to stop that from happening. Recently, from that last time, I think it only happened once, and it never added again. We implemented three layers of verification. The first is our own personal verification that we do. This second is with screen other marketplaces to know if they have verified a token ID, then it is now displayed on HashGuild that it is verified on another Marketplace so it is genuine. So, the third one Is that we every day we manually check what has been listed on HQ to relate it with what is the real and what is not, although we have the automated one, but you know you can't overlook some things. So those are the things that we've been able to ensure that really reduces the risk potential of the users, so I think that's been my own experience so far.
Earthlings – Patrick De Grijs – Founder & CEO
Again, made there and indeed, I'm not following in love. Well, you can fall in love with my project, I don't know, but you were right, never fall in love with just one project. And thank you so much for, uh, for sharing your experience as well. I would, we already have a new, um, NFTier speaker on the list. I'm gonna give you the turn later because I really now want to hear what Coffee from Leemon swap has to say, and we also still have Master Oogway. But Master Oogway, your master Tudor took a lot of your time, but I want to hear your story as well. I'm sorry we're going out for the hour, but I think we're gonna, we're up for some still some nice surprises, some nice stories, so Coffee, Bring It On, give us some juicy stuff, and um, yeah, well, stage is yours.
Leemon Swap – Coffee – Head of Business Development
So I'm gonna try and keep this short as it appears some people, like to hear themselves talk more than I do, but yeah, there's a few things I wanted to touch on. Tudor touched on one a little while back, a little, you know, briefly, but that's I think the overuse of the word Rug pull, at times, you know, there's just project failures, so I think there is a very important distinction between the two. Now obviously, there's a lot of people that, you know, they have good intentions as Tudor said, they fail, and then they decide to rug pull because, either, you know, they're too ashamed to admit they failed or they don't want to miss out on, the revenue that they have remaining in their Treasury. So that's definitely something you need to look out for. You know, project failures have happened, a lot in the last two to three years, just to name a few. Stack Bank, I know everyone was crushed by that in the early days of Hedera. Is that what it's called, Stack Bank? Or is it, wait, hold on. Yes, that a Stack is the project name originally, but I know a lot of people lost a lot of money on that basically because the team can fall through with, you know, what they had planned, whether that was, inability because of, Hedera's capabilities at the original planning of their project. Or, you know, just running out of runway essentially. But, that for instance, you know, I don't believe that was a rug pull. I think they just legitimately failed. Another one that was big was when, and I know this might be a little sensitive subject, but, when OnlyFans came out and said that they were gonna stop doing adult content, and then you saw that huge explosion in adult content 10 coins, and then obviously, OnlyFans, flip the switch again and it was kind of just a marketing stunt. And all those other projects essentially failed, so that was, you know, market conditions that created, you know, a loss of use for these new projects. So that's just kind of failures that you need to try and anticipate when you're creating a or when you're making an investment. One of the other things I want to touch on is just, you know, the fact that the internet is inherently, hard to judge people. You know, you make relationships, you think that these people are your friends, you think that they are with you in, you know, what your goals are with a project. Maybe you, maybe you told them, personal information that they then took advantage of. So you know, just a warning to people that are trying to build something with other, you know, anonymous users. Even if they're, even if they are doxed, it doesn't really guarantee any positive outcome for people that you partner up with. So just be careful with who you trust your personal information with, who you trust your intellectual property with, and make sure that you know you can protect yourself. And really besides that, it's really just trying to, grow the ecosystem in a way that's sustainable, and that kind of goes back to the failure thing. You know, a lot of projects, they launch and they're either, unable to fund the development and they essentially run out of runway because their mint doesn't go well, and they're just kind of stuck in the water. So I see that a lot, and then those are called rug pulls, but essentially they're just failures. So that's just the two things I wanted to kind of touch on. Is just watch out for changing market conditions that lead to failures and projects, and kind of be a little bit more hesitant in the use of the word rug pull, unless you know there's obvious malicious intent. Because I feel like if failures were more publicly discussed, there might not be as much of a stigma for people to admit their failures, and that could reduce the amount of, quote-unquote rug pulls that you get just based off of people pulling, revenue out of the treasury after they, they realized that they, you know, can't complete the project. So hopefully in the future that kind of changes, how the public perceives every project, and they're able to better determine whether or not they should be investing in what they're doing.
Earthlings – Patrick De Grijs – Founder & CEO
Thanks, Coffee, for yet again another few, points on things. I do think that that too, door, and correct me if I'm wrong, also said that sometimes it is just indeed that projects do take the project seriously and in the end, things should go haywire and they just don't work out. Yeah, these things can happen, and I do agree with you that is not a rug pull. It's more something like intentional to me as a scam. So I'm 100% on board with you, uh, on that because we see that in the regular industry as well, sometimes a project just fails, and then it's not rock proof of course, so, uh, we've got two more speakers, and, I'm happy about it, actually, because I'm enjoying the whole show, actually. So, yes, Master Ubway, you have your turn, and after that, I want NFTier to introduce himself and say something too, but I expect even more from you. Well, what do you have to say?
HeadStarter – Master Ogway – Community Manager
No, I'm gonna keep it nice and short. First of all, thank you, Patrick, for having me on. It's great to be here, and for anybody that isn't familiar, I'm the community manager for Head Starter Tudor. Already sure shared his uh, story, but I have one on my own that I wanted to share. Lots of great points have been made already, so I don't think I'll be bringing up anything new, but my story was putting in, I think, a hundred USD into a project that I believe in. Can't name because last time I checked, it was either dead or on the brink of dying, and that's Wonderland with the token time. And a friend had introduced me to that, and this was, uh, what were they calling it? Web 3.5 or something, and they had all the frogs and the 333 and this kind of stuff. You know, just some crazy algorithms and equations backing, these, well, they had, we're using that as the reasoning for being able to give everyone, thousands of percent, APY. So I remember looking into it and watching a bunch of videos explaining how it works and thinking, "What the hell? This makes no sense." But the more you see and you kind of want to understand it because then you feel really clever. So I thought, "Oh yeah, this is starting to make sense. You know, maybe I'll just put in 100 bucks because they're offering 80,000 APY at the time, so I thought I'm either gonna be a millionaire or lose 100 bucks, so slap that in there." And you have no surprise, a few months later, the project was dead, price went down 99, and yeah, money is gone. So that's, I think that's probably the worst scam I've fallen for, and my advice would be to not get sucked into overcomplicated equations and explanations for creating money. The simple truth is you cannot create money out of thin air, it has to come from somewhere. It doesn't matter what they show you, how they explain it, everything's a new technology, everything's a new way of doing swaps, you know, everyone's found a new thing. It just doesn't matter, you cannot create money out of nothing, it has to come from somewhere, and at the end of the day, you might be the one holding the bag, so yeah, don't get fooled by overcomplicated mechanics and different mechanisms, and if the person or the project can't explain it to you in layman's terms, then they're talking because they should understand it well enough to do so.
Earthlings – Patrick De Grijs – Founder & CEO
So, story before, but anyway, thank you for sharing that story, and I think a lot of people know these kind of stories, it's hoping that sometimes makes your head go crazy and do stupid things, of course. I see that we have one. Oh, by the way, I do think the Central European Bank and the fact they can make money out of thin air, so something that's true, yeah. But so sub can, but I've got one more speaker. I'm really curious behind that, so NFTier. I only see only since after that. Take a seat and tell us your story.
NFTier – Kantorcodes - Founder
Hello there, thanks for having me. Before I kick off, could you actually, tell me what the questions were again? is, uh, this is Kendrick Codes behind the NFTier account. Uh, before I kick off, I don't want to misconstrue, uh, but what were the three questions that you gave for the prompt for the main guest, but you can do that as well if you want, and what's your experience with scams or rug pulls and how could you have prevented it? So, stage is yours. Tell us, okay, thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, so this is the counter codes behind the NFTier account. For those who don't know, uh, NFT-R is a multi-chain rarity engine launchpad and analytics platform for NFT enthusiasts. We came to Hedera, back in, I want to say, May, and we originally started by offering rarity on Hedera. The first collection that we had ever done was HBrains. They sent us a DM and they asked us if we could do rarity for their collection. We had never heard of Hedera. My initial thought was, 'What is this Hedera thing? Never heard of it before.' And then we looked at the documentation and two hours later, we had our first rarity listing for Hedera, and the rest was honestly history. In terms of your second question around scams and rug pulls, the master is actually talking about this one a little bit too with the Time Wonderland stuff. That one was quite fascinating, and that's one that I got caught up with as well because, you know, a lot of these dapps and protocols' tokenomics, they kind of sweep you off your feet. They put these fun little UIs. They put animals behind them and things like that, and they try to abstract the traditional banking systems and lending systems behind these fun, lovable characters. Uh, with Wonderland, you know, you have the 333, you had the frogs, and you had all these memes about, you know, as eighty thousand percent APY, and you felt like a fool because you hadn't invested in it because all of this content was on Twitter just blowing up in your face. Um, and I find that really fascinating because I think so many people fell for that. You know, you see all this content, you're like, 'Oh, okay, I must be an idiot because I haven't purchased that. Let me go and, you know, buy that,' and then a month later, you find out, you know, I just, uh, I'm holding somebody else's bag. That's actually what happened. Um, I was swept away by complex math that actually didn't really mean anything. It was just gibberish. Um, I think I didn't personally lose a ton of money in time, Wonderland, but it did teach me a lesson, you know, well two lessons. One, uh, where does APY come from? That's really key. It's coming from somewhere, right? Uh, or it's just being made from thin air and has no value. So, that's, that was the first thing that was super important too. Who's the team building this thing? Are they adept developers? Do they have experience in the traditional finance sectors and things like that that they're coming up with these reinventions? You know, time-tested financial systems? Or are they just, you know, engineers coming out of their woodwork and building something completely random and trying to swindle you? Uh, so there's that big trust factor that's important to look at, protocols, and teams and who's behind the face. Are they KYC'd and dogs and such? Um, I think those are all super important. Uh, the other kind of, like, as Hash Guild also had kind of like a personal take for me. My personal take was years ago when I first started uh investing into crypto, I was, you know, I think like many of you in these uh telegram groups for different protocols because telegram was pretty popular before Discord came out. Um, and you'd go into these price conversations and frequently there would be people who would post like technical analysis charts and everyone would send them hard emojis and all these things thinking that there's some kind of geniuses. And there was, one trade for a protocol that somebody had put up and I was like, "Oh, I gotta get in this right now." Uh, and I have put some money into it just looking at their graph and chart, thinking it made a ton of sense, and a few weeks later, it's when I was at a massive loss, uh, based on that chart. And it's obviously 100% my fault for, you know, trusting that data, but, it goes, you know, it's a lesson that you shouldn't just blindly trust, you know, one technical analysis or people claiming to be financial experts or investing experts because at the end of the day, it's quite possible that they know just as much as you do, and you know, their best case is, you know, and cliche as it is, to do your own research so you don't end up being a loser in something.
Earthlings – Patrick De Grijs – Founder & CEO
Excuse me, that was a great story as well. Thank you for sharing that. And, uh, again, a lot of things that, that I recognize are probably a lot of, guests in the space recognize, uh, uh, what you said. Hope you can do weird things with you. It's like blind love, family. So hope you missed something that people also used to scam you in in new projects, of course. And I heard so many things this evening that I can use for the next show, and I'm sure we're going to have a very nice show like this one, uh, in two weeks again. And I'm sorry, Marc, that I didn't have you, you're my co-host, you're my co-body here, but I'm sorry I took over all the time but HashPack is always backing me up, being my co-host and we actually do this together. Maybe Next time Marc you should do one more talking and I should do less and I think we could go on thread forever. And, I want to thank all of all of the guests today and I actually hope all of them will come back next time. Maybe I need to cut them in half because we've gone quite well over time. So share the love, share this as Twitter space. It's good if people uh talk about it, listen to it as well but also, um, I think it will be great if in a couple of months we would just pick this, this, this subject up again and indeed share some more stories and see where we got done because this is a very nice topic and people need to know about this. But also I want to remind you guys because earthlings we are doing a show every week, so me and Marcel. So today was me and say my um Marc from HashPack, sorry Marc but usually we do the twin show and we always bring HashPack there as well. But next week, we'll have uh Milan and Ace by Joe and they're doing something uh what I have on my list, Joey and Milan to Earth. I have no clue what that means but after that it says what are people buying right now and why but I do like that so me I know Milan is listening in Joey as well. Joey and Milan to Earth, I think that's catchy so I think we should stick with that. So I don't know that was the intention, Joe and Milan but I like that so tune in next week for them. And the week after I'll be back with my brother and my co-host HashPack always and I hope to see all of you uh come back again and, uh, yeah, let's do this more often. I like these freestyle shows a lot so thanks all.